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BRETT72 Profile
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X-TRAIL HOLIC
 


Date Registered: 10-2005
Location: Orange. NSW.
TOTAL POSTS: 1999
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Ok guys, time for an update into my 'butterfly screw' issue:
 
 As you are aware, on the 4th of April I commenced a thread titled, 'Serious Loss of Power', after my xtrail appeared to drop down to 3 cylinders and had no power or torque. Long story cut short, drove carefully home, removed spark plugs, to find the #1 plug electrode bent back on itself and serious pitting to the base of the plug. Arranged to have the vehicle flat-bedded into Nissan Orange, where I suspected that the screws holding the #1 butterfly valve had come loose , dropped into the chamber, thus causing the damage.

S.L.O.P. thread

  Ok, so now I am at Nissan and I explain to them the problem and how I believe that the butterfly screws from #1 chamber have come loose and caused the damage. Mechanics question where I got this information from, appearing to discount any notion that this could have occured. Informed them of recall issue with the QR25DE engine, however they still refused to believe that this caused the problem. Vehicle booked in on Thursday 5th of April, spark plug given to mechanic to see the damage for himself.

  Contacted Nissan Orange several times early the following week, to be told that they were still running 'diagnostic tests' on it. I again stated my claim that the butterfly screws probably caused the damage, as information from overseas xtrail owners supported this. Again, this information appeared to be pushed aside. Promised to be contacted daily by mechanic. Explained urgency of repair and/or loan car due to having no other vehicle available and being required to drive to Canberra and Wollongong for urgent medical appointments on the weekend of the 21/22nd April. Told no loan cars available, but possibly could hire a vehicle from them if needed.

  Nissan Orange finally called on the 13th April, to tell me that it appeared the #1 butterfly screws (both) came loose and cause some "minor pitting" to the cylinder head, but it was not a concern. Explained to me that the head was being examined by an 'specialist' in town and that the parts had been ordered to fix it. I asked whether it was a warranty job, to be told that this aspect had not been decided upon yet. I continued with my push for a new engine, due to the issues of pitting and the possibility of the seal being inadequate, resulting in loss of power. I was told that Nissan Australia had only approved for the engine to be repaired, due to it only suffering minor damage. Repair was to consist of:
  1. Replace butterfly valve.
  2. Replace and loctite the 8 butterfly screws.
  3. Replace gaskets.

  I explained that I was not happy with this type of "band-aid" repair and my concerns of it re-occuring in a remote area and having no means of transport. I also expressed my concerns of not having a car, but this fell on deaf ears. I was also concerned about the fall in compression and any long term damage this had caused the engine. I was put in my place and told that the engine was fine, they had removed the head, done more than Nissan Australia asked of them by doing this, retrieved the screws and it would be ok. I asked to meet with them on the following Monday to see first hand.

  After much research, emails and phonecalls with Jalal, Deb(debdorro) and Brad(jackamundi), I met with the head mechanic and service manager at Nissan Orange. I was shown several pics of the damage (see below), which blew me away. Although Deb sent me some pics of her damaged piston head, I could not believe the amount of pitting caused. And they still said it was minor and of no real concern. "yeah you may lose some power, but it will be ok."

  I asked to see the head and damage for myself, and this again blew me away. The amount of pitting caused to the #1 head was worse then any golf ball I have ever seen. And also the edge of the piston appeared to have cracks and did not look like it would seal properly under pressure. I was then told that the entire butterfly valve fell into the chamber and not just the two screws.

  I was continually reassured that the repair , as approved by Nissan Australia would fix the problem and that approval for it to be treated as under warranty was given. I continued to question this type of repair, however I was told that their hands were tied by Nissan Australia and they could only act on these instructions.

  I was also told that no such recall had occurred relating to butterfly screws and when I offerred to show 3" of documentation (you just gotta love the internet), they told me that all that information related to a totally different engine. No matter how hard I tried to explain that whether assembled in China, Japan or elsewhere, the issue of loose butterfly screws was a common theme. No matter what vehicle it was fitted to and/or what country it was in. Again, fell on deaf ears.

  Due to that common feeling of 'am I wasting my time here', I left, refusing to sign any service request or agree to this type of repair. I was however informed that the car would be ready at the latest by Thursday(20th), so we could make our appointment.

  So, again I spoke with Jalal and forwarded off a letter of complaint, accompanied by pictures of the damage. Nissan Australia appear to have received a totally different version of events and level of damage from Nissan Orange and have agreed to re-evalute their position on the repair.

 Pics for you to look over:

1Image 2Image 3Image

4Image 5Image 6Image

7.Image
 

 So, back to these pics.

1. Shows the entire butterfly valve and screws missing.
2. Again, showing the make-up of the butterfly valves and the tiny (non loctited) screws which are causing us the grief.
3. Damaged intake, showing where the butterfly valve fell and rammed into this cavity. Nice pitting.
4. Nice pitting on top of the piston and bore marks around the edge of the chamber. This piston head was so polish you could almost shave off it. The other, as per normal, were smooth and a flat black (carbon) colour. the texture of the piston head was compariable to a golf ball.
5. Another close-up of the top of the piston, showing the pitting and the cracks and added damage to rim of the piston. Again, this surface should be perfectly smooth (and black)
6. Nice shot of the damage caused to the top of the cylinder head. For the non-mechanics out there, the spark plug sticks about 1" through the hole. This is where the screws (and possibly entire valve) ended up, being rammed into the cylinder head at a couple of thousand times a minute. No wonder the plug electrode was crushed and pitted.
7. Showing the condition of the butterfly valve after a quick trip through the cylinder head.

  So, where are we now... WHO KNOWS !!!

  Jalal is in constant contact with Nissan Australia about this issue and trying to save a lot of xtrail owners from going through this problem. Whatever the result, we should all appreciate the effort he has put in, I certainly do.

  note: This vehicle is 3 months outside the Nissan warranty period and driven only 59,000kms (warranty extends up to 100,000km if done so inside 3 years - go figure)



Last edited by BRETT72, 18/Apr/2007, 6:16 am


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BRETT72 - X235

17/Apr/2007, 3:04 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN
 
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X-TRAIL VETERAN
 


Date Registered: 09-2005
Location: QLD
TOTAL POSTS: 786
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Well just quietly... I think that is a disgusting level of service from the dealer.

And to suggest that 'you may lose some power' shows complete disrespect for the customer.

You wouldn't buy a $600 set of cutting knives that read 'they might get blunt after their warranty' on the packaging. Why would you buy a car from a dealer that acknowledges that you 'might lose some power due to a serious design flaw at the end of the cars warranty period'?

Dealer is shooting themselves in the foot with statements like that and it goes to show that their mechanical knowledge is very poor. They are more worried about the cost to themselves than the overall well-being of the customer. Not uncommon in todays society unfortunately.

---

My Triton GLX-R

17/Apr/2007, 3:22 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN
 
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X-TRAIL LEGEND
 


Date Registered: 08-2005
Location: Sydney
TOTAL POSTS: 542
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Thanks for the detailed update Brett. I am watching this thread with interest and increasing concern given that my car is 6 months out of warranty and has done around 45,000km.

The service you are getting from the dealer is simply shocking! I hope Nissan Australia see sense and resolve this matter the right way for you, certainly the band aid approach is not acceptable given the damage.

Good luck with this and please keep us updated.



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- Adam (MY04 Titanium Ti-L)
Full Hi-Tech exhaust,Koni shocks,Whiteline rear s/bar,front strut bar,K&N filter,eyelids,Pioneer DVD+iPod+Veh Dynamics+rear view camera
17/Apr/2007, 4:41 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
jalalski Profile
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Thanks for your efforts in putting this detailed report together Brett. Much appreciated.

There was one more pic that you showed me (and which I have sent to Nissan) which displayed the butterfly plate and how bent and damaged it got after getting tumbled inside the chamber. That would be interesting for others to see too I reckon.

There is another interesting observation which I made yesterday after seeing your pics.

The second pic of the lower section of intake manifold showing the missing butterfly and 2 screws is somewhat strange!

It shows the far right screws as having washers, which is the new design of the butterfly screws as per the 2006 models and the rest of the screws are the old style (from 2001-2005 models) without washers, so am not sure if this pic was taken DURING the process of having the butterflies and screws replaced by the dealer or when they took off the intake away from the engine, but it is certainly weird and I would have questioned them about it.

Image

In any case and as Brett already mentioned, I am in constant contact with Nissan Australia about this and expecting to receive an answer shortly. (sometime this week)

This is a matter that any xtrail owner should be concerned about indeed and I sure do hope we get an answer and resolution about this from Nissan telling us what will be the next step!

Last edited by jalalski, 17/Apr/2007, 5:03 pm


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17/Apr/2007, 5:00 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
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Date Registered: 04-2005
Location: melbourne
TOTAL POSTS: 154
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Hi Brett, Jalal,

I've been watching this with interest! I have an 05' Series II which has done 60,000 kms, so getting a little bit worried about meeting the same fate.

As an aside, I used to drive an '02 BMW Mini Cooper. It developed a strange clicking noise from the engine one day (at around 30,000kms on the odo), drove it straight home (3km), and called the dealer. They sent down a tilt tray truck, and took it away. Drove down two days later to see how it was going, they had the engine out, and a new one sitting beside the car ready to drop in! Hadn't even stripped the old one back to diagnose it fully! Five days after they took delivery of it, I drove it home, no questions asked. Brilliant service.

Now the only difference is that this was all done during the warranty period, but you said that Orange Nissan had approval to do repairs under warranty, therefore the whole case should be treated as under warranty (especially considering the vehicle has only covered 59000kms and is only 3months out of warranty time frame).

Best of luck Brett and Jalal!

tim.
17/Apr/2007, 6:37 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: SUTHERLAND, SYDNEY
TOTAL POSTS: 29094
Reply | QUOTE
Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Thanks Tim, but am afraid the expectation we (as owners) have is for this problem to be fixed being IN or OUT of warranty because it is a Nissan DEFECT and it is not related to normal wear and tear problems which may come up in any car. Since there is no official recall for this defect in Australia, Nissan Australia AND Japan should step up to the mark and ensure that all break-downs associated with the butterfly screws is dealt with promptly and that engine replacement should be the ONLY solution in such cases, as the damage caused by these screws and butterflies is far too great to leave any engine of ours running perfectly like it is now. The repair solution offered in Brett's case (and Deb before him) is NOT acceptable.

This will still be cheaper (to both Nissan Australia & Japan) than recalling ALL xtrails sold between the years of 2001 to 2005.

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17/Apr/2007, 6:48 pm Link to this post Send Private Message MSN Blog
 
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Date Registered: 02-2004
Location: Panania, Sydney
TOTAL POSTS: 2852
Reply | QUOTE
Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


I'm surprised there wasn't damage done to the engine valves (see the two round things at the bottom of the last photo), what with 2 screws, and the butterfly valve bouncing around inside the cylinder at an incredible speed! They might be bent and you wouldn't even know it (I suppose a compression test would reveal that, as they wouldn't seal properly if the valve stems were bent - a broken o-ring on the piston would also give a low reading).

If they were going to force me to accept their band-aid fix, I wouldn't be signing anything without watching them perform the compression test and seeing the results for myself (they could easily print out a report stating values and that they're all within tolerance if you weren't there).


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17/Apr/2007, 7:08 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message MSN Yahoo Blog
 
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Date Registered: 06-2006
TOTAL POSTS: 15
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Hi everyone, have been watching this topic for a while but after seeing the pictures of the damage I would like to put in my two bobs worth. As a Mechanic with many years exp. I suspect the top ring on the piston is possibly broken as the edge of the piston has been damaged,The valves would more than likely to be bent and because the piston has been pounding the screw into the head the Bigend Bearing is possibly damaged also. At a minimum this motor needs to be completely disasembled and properly inspected. I hope Nissan gets their act together soon before they ruin the reputation of a great motor vehicle.
17/Apr/2007, 11:25 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
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Date Registered: 08-2005
Location: coffs harbour
TOTAL POSTS: 34
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


sorry to hear and see the damage done by the screws comeing out looking at the pictures. I hope that the screw or the butterfly did not damage the out side edge of the piston because it can pinch the rings and stop them from sealing or even put a hair line crack in the piston and damage the valve and the seats. I hope you do get a new motor at no cost to you. Keep your chin up.
17/Apr/2007, 11:50 pm Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 
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BANNED USER

Date Registered: 10-2005
Location: Newfoundland Canada
TOTAL POSTS: 395
Reply | QUOTE
Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**


Brett:

Really sorry about you getting bit by the "butterfly" screw bug. This should not be happening to any X-Trail owner.

Nissan has made an exceptionally good vehicle in the X-Trail and it is evident from this forum, and others that I participate in,that there are a lot of really satisfied owners of X-Trail.

The next step for Nissan, after having provided such a good vehicle, is to stand behind it, admit when there has been a manufacturing flaw, and fix it, without placing the owner under such duress during the process.

I can appreciate that a "local" dealer can only go so far in the process without the "authority" from on high. However, the "local" dealer should be mindful of the fact that you are the same customer who bought the X-T in the first place and they should treat you today with the same courtesy and respect that they did when you were buying the vehicle.

Additionally, they "absolutely" should be providing you with a loaner vehicle.

Obviously, "appropriate" resolution of the problem will have to come from "on High" (read as Nissan Australia). The efforts being put forward by those of you involved is the only way to get the matter sorted out.

IMHO, that "appropriate" resolution is a completed engine replacement - and nothing less - I would let the X-T rot on their parking lot before I would agree to any "band-aid" treatment.

The damage that I have seen in your pictures,again in IMHO, cannot be repaired without an engine rebuild/overhaul, which is a time consuming process, during which you'll still be without a vehicle...it appears.

Jalal has developed a good rapport with Nissan Australia and it appears that they are aware of this forum and the many, many members who participate in it.

Nissan Japan (by way of Nissan Australia) should also be aware that many of those same member are also members of other forums (in Canada, Malaysia etc.) and all of us are watching this forum and judging the "quality" of Nissan's after-sales service, which is usually one of the main reasons why a buyer picks a particular product - manufacturer.

While there has not been too much activity on this from here in Canada, I did see an X-T at my dealer on my last service visit (March 07) which had obvious engine problems - and I suspect that the butterfly screws were the culprit.

One of the things that really bothers me about this issue is the future - even if Nissan provides a new engine, what assurances do we have that they have resolved the problem and it won't happen again ??

I wish you well with the outcome - which I speculate will be positive for you.

That being said, I wonder how long after the outcome that you will still be driving a Nissan product.....

Stick with it, keep your chin up and fight the good fight - you'll win in the end, especially with all of your fellow members supporting you, lead by the Head Administrator - Jalal.

Here to support you = Roger



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Roger
X 228


2006 X-T Bonavista Edition
Production Number 0001

18/Apr/2007, 1:34 am Link to this post Send Email PM   Send Private Message
 


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