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Mark Ro
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BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
Hi Folks
Sadly our next gig at the Mixing Tin in Leeds has had to be cancelled. That's 3 gigs in as many months that have gone down the toilet through no real fault of our own.
As frustration takes a firm grip of one's gonads I thought I'd just give the fine ladies and gentlemen who frequent this forum, a little glimpse of what we're up against when trying to nail a gig.
I need to pre-empt this by saying that it is worthy of note that Breathing Space are what may be called (for want of a better genre) a 'classic rock band'. We're a six piece band with 2 keyboard players. Some of the sounds we use are quite complex as you may know, for example Distant Train - we play this to a basic click track (this has always been that way, even when MA performed it), Iain and Ben play numerous different sounds during the song. I myself play the original flute motif on guitar synth, then switch to standard guitar for the build up chords and the closing solo's.
As a band we nominally play 2 x 45 minute sets.
With that in mind we set about trying to book some gigs, we let the venue or promoter know well in advance what sort of band we are by sending them a detailed band profile, then we push on to try to get a booking.
See the following series of emails firing back and forth between myself and 1). The promoter of a Leeds gig we've just had to cancel and, 2) A major venue in Liverpool (gig cancelled a few weeks ago).
Names have been changed to protect the guilty.
Hi J
Can't get hold of you on the phone
Anyway, presumably we're still OK for our gig in Leeds in April
22nd??
Support will be Ade Payne
If all is OK, what would you consider a reasonable admission fee? We would
estimate £4 or £5?
Do you need posters? Should we deliver them straight to the venue?
Cheers
Mark BREATHING SPACE
*******************************************
Subject: Re: Breathing Space gig
Hey mate, don't know why that is, but anyway, all fine for the 22nd mate,
it's going to be an alldayer, I've got you on late@ 8.40, it's £5 in, you get £1
for first ten and £3 for any after, or you can have a £3 guestlist taking a
bit from both of us to get it busy, or you can buy 25 tickets for £50-you can
make £75, however you'd like to do it, drop me any more ?'s and I'll sort
mate.
J
*********************************************
"Mark Rowen" wrote:
Hi J
An all-dayer? Does that mean we're only expected to do less than an hour?
Do we use our own backline?
Cheers
Mark
********************************************
Alldayer sets are generally 30minutes max unless you're headlining, you won’t be in this case so the headliner would provide bass amp+ a drumkit.
J
*********************************************
eh?
From: TC Liverpool
To: Mark Rowen
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Re: GETTING A GIG - Breathing Space
24th June Ok for you guys then?
Regards
G
******************************************
On 3/2/07, Mark Rowen wrote:
24th June great for us , THANKS.
What's the deal regarding fee? Is it door take, percentage of door take or standard fee etc -
Do you need any more band info from us?
Do we need to arrange support band? We do have a few acts that support us, depending on where we play.
Cheers
Mark
*******************************************
From: TC Liverpool
To: Mark Rowen
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Re: GETTING A GIG - Breathing Space
We normally pay depending on the amount of fans through the door. How many do you think you might bring?
Regards
G
*********************************************
On 3/3/07, Mark Rowen wrote:
Tricky one G. It's our first gig over the Pennines and I know that folks have been waiting for us to get over there.
We recently played to about 150 at the Boardwalk in Sheffield, and that was at very short notice.
Where we set the door price, we never charge above £5.
I'd like to think we'd draw at least 50, that's a pretty conservative guess.
But we'll go along with any suggestions you'd care to make.
Cheers
Mark
*********************************************
----- Original Message -----
From: TC Liverpool
To: Mark Rowen
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: GETTING A GIG - Breathing Space
Then I suggest you do a flyer gig where it's £3.50 to get in and you'll get £1.75 back for everyone coming to see you. Based on your figures, that's £87.50
If that's ok, I'll sort the date.
Regards
G
*********************************************
On 3/4/07, Mark Rowen > wrote:
Thanks G
Yes, I'd like to confirm the gig please.
I've attached our band profile again for your info.
Please use any of the photo's that are on our myspace site should you need them
I'll get back to you about a support slot
Shall I send you some posters over?
Cheers
Mark
Original Message -----
From: TC Liverpool
To: Mark Rowen
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: Re: GETTING A GIG - Breathing Space
OK thanks, it's now in the diary, 24th June.
Please make sure you read this carefully as it should answer all your questions right now. The tone is factual due to the amount of bands we book, so don't take it personally; I'm just getting all the necessary information to you.
You'll be on with up to five other bands. It will be a flyer gig, i.e. entry is £4.50 or £3.50 with flyer. We will send you flyers and a contract via email(normally about 2 months prior to your gig). If you bring more than 20 people you will get £1.75 for every person through the door that is on your list. Just hand your flyers out, they will pay on the door when they arrive. We will keep a record of each band's numbers (we ask everyone who they've come to see as they come in). You can monitor this if you wish.
Your time on stage is decided by when the gig was confirmed and by the amount of people you bring on the night. So your time on stage will be confirmed when you arrive. Slots are normally between 8.00pm and 12.30am and your time on stage is 30 minutes.
Soundcheck is at 6.00pm ; All backline is provided and the drummer must use our kit, but bring cymbals and personal drummer bits. Left-handed drummers please advise in advance!
************************************************************************
Aaaaaagh!!
Last edited by Mark Ro, 20/Mar/07, 1:27 pm
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20/Mar/07, 4:30 am
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Weety
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
What a nightmare, mate. I feel for you.
One of the things that p***es me off is when landlords book us to play a gig, say starting at 9pm, we arrive at 7.30pm with the gear only to find that none of the tables in the 'band playing' area have been moved or there's people eating there etc & a few times we have ended up moving the tables!!!.......aarrgh!!
Or getting informed at a function that you are only required to play for 30mins - takes over an hour to set the pigging gear up!!!!
All the best,
Weety
---
Weety
--------
The swear filter again; how come I can't get 'D i c kensian' through, but Weety can get away with 'wanksock'? -
Paul Q
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20/Mar/07, 11:28 am
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Marc Atkinson
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
Hi Mark 
Welcome to my nightmare 
This is what is was like booking gigs for GABRIEL. Getting gigs these days for a band that actually plays all it's own material (with maybe a few covers thrown in) is a total ball buster  Venues either want cover/tribute bands or they bung you on 'all dayers' like this where you get a five minute soundcheck, a 30 minute set, 5 other bands on, a PA that sounds appalling and you actually lose money doing the gig. It's... well I think the technical term is... S###E 
When MOSTLY AUTUMN first started out there was still enough venues that supported original music and MA grew their following by playing these places. A lot of those same venues now wouldnt risk booking a 'unknown name' band like MA were in '96 now as a sole headliner. It seems there's just too many bands these days and not enough venues... 
But the good news is that, with all the 'leg work' Iain did in MA, surely that opens a few doors to venues? Is there no chance that any of the venues MA play would be willing to book BREATHING SPACE on the fact that a lot of MA fans would like to see BS live and therefore a certain amount of 'punters' is guarenteed (if promoted enough)? Surely Bryan is a position to give you guys names and contact numbers for the people you have to speak to to get this sorted? Surely some MA fans out there will be able to have a word with their local venues and get you guys there? MA fans are obviousley very loyal and Im sure their loyalty still extends to Iain and some would be willing to help out if they can.
You guys need to get out there NOW while people still remember how talented Iain is (as you all are) and while you guys are sounding as good as you are right now. Too many cancelled gigs coupled with that awful frustration of not been able to get bookings in the 'right' venues soon can lead to disalussionment.... disallusionment.... eerrr... disapointment and low moral within the band... Believe me, I know 
So the main thing is... DONT GIVE UP!!!!! The 2nd album is gonna sound amazing and you guys are really sounding like 'band' now. All you need is to be given the chance to prove yourselves..... and a decent support act
All the pieces are in place. The Best Is Yet To Come. 
See ya soon, Man
Peace, Love and Rock n Roll
Marc
Last edited by Marc Atkinson, 20/Mar/07, 12:09 pm
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David Meadows
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
And now, after a bit of thought, I think I need to put my moderator's hat and ask if you'll edit some details out of your post. If you could avoid any explicit naming of the organisations involved, I think that would be "safer". If you see what I mean.
I doubt many people would be so open about the things you've discussed, and I'm sure everyone here appreciates the frank look at how these things work, but I'm worried it might be a bit *too* frank.
---
"We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts, we make the world."
-- Buddha
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20/Mar/07, 1:02 pm
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Marc Atkinson
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
quote:
Based on your figures, that's £87.50
I'm stunned. How do you eat?
I've done audience head-counts at Breathing Space gigs (and at Mostly Autumn gigs in the early days), calculated the take, and wondered... how can anybody possibly make a living from this?
The amount of faith you must have in yourselves (totally justified, believe me) is... ah, I don't know how to express it. I'm am awed and humbled in the face of such dedication to art. Seriously.
£87.50......that's ridiculous. That's less money than I spend travelling to some gigs . If I pay you that, will you come to my house? I promise you can play for as many hours as you like AND get a full sound check
I think the thing to remember here is that bands that play original tunes do it for Love - pure and simply. The stuff we call 'money' is only made by bands who either play all 'cover versions' or at the level where they sell enough tickets and play venues big enough to make a profit at.
Certainly with GABRIEL we were always happy if we broke even at a gig. When all the Van Hire, Fuel, Light Hire and PA hire has been forked out for there's very little left for band members if anything at all. Ive played countless gigs where it has actually cost more money to play the gig than has been taken on the door and Im sure the same can be said for many bands (including MA in the past and BREATHING SPACE right now).
Been creative and playing original tunes with a band in its early stages is done out of the sheer love of doing it and the feeling of getting your tunes (and yourselves) 'out there'. If you join an original band so you can 'make money' you're in the entirely wrong business. You have to find other ways (ie; day jobs and/or playing 'cover' gigs) to keep the 'wolf from the door'.
That's just the reality of the situation.
Ive really cheered myself up now
Peace
marc 
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20/Mar/07, 1:59 pm
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Marc Atkinson
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
And now, after a bit of thought, I think I need to put my moderator's hat and ask if you'll edit some details out of your post. If you could avoid any explicit naming of the organisations involved, I think that would be "safer". If you see what I mean.
I doubt many people would be so open about the things you've discussed, and I'm sure everyone here appreciates the frank look at how these things work, but I'm worried it might be a bit *too* frank.
I dont think you have anything to worry about, David. This is just The Truth of how things are for original bands nowadays. I dont think anything slanderous has been said here by anyone...... I mean, PTG hasnt posted yet!
(That was a joke, Peter, I love your new, calmer self)
Peace and love
Marc
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20/Mar/07, 2:04 pm
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David Meadows
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
quote:
I dont think anything slanderous has been said here by anyone
I agree. But for the band's sake I think it's better to be cautious. I don't know enough law to know if it's bad to post details of private business transactions, but if it is...
---
"We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts, we make the world."
-- Buddha
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20/Mar/07, 2:57 pm
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theproglord
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
quote:
I dont think anything slanderous has been said here by anyone
I agree. But for the band's sake I think it's better to be cautious. I don't know enough law to know if it's bad to post details of private business transactions, but if it is...
The proglord will field this, not unless there is a specific confidentiality caveat in the contract. It is often bad business practice since the venue mat not take kindly to having the info disseminated but since the terms offered seem a.) Eminently Standard and b.) Close to penury and unacceptable to the entity posting he has nothing to lose. The proglord suspects this is the conclusion Ro entity has arrived at himself.....
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20/Mar/07, 3:16 pm
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Weety
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Re: BREATHING SPACE. Organising a gig - what we're up against
quote:
Marc Atkinson wrote:
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
quote:
Based on your figures, that's £87.50
I'm stunned. How do you eat?
I've done audience head-counts at Breathing Space gigs (and at Mostly Autumn gigs in the early days), calculated the take, and wondered... how can anybody possibly make a living from this?
The amount of faith you must have in yourselves (totally justified, believe me) is... ah, I don't know how to express it. I'm am awed and humbled in the face of such dedication to art. Seriously.
£87.50......that's ridiculous. That's less money than I spend travelling to some gigs . If I pay you that, will you come to my house? I promise you can play for as many hours as you like AND get a full sound check
I think the thing to remember here is that bands that play original tunes do it for Love - pure and simply. The stuff we call 'money' is only made by bands who either play all 'cover versions' or at the level where they sell enough tickets and play venues big enough to make a profit at.
Certainly with GABRIEL we were always happy if we broke even at a gig. When all the Van Hire, Fuel, Light Hire and PA hire has been forked out for there's very little left for band members if anything at all. Ive played countless gigs where it has actually cost more money to play the gig than has been taken on the door and Im sure the same can be said for many bands (including MA in the past and BREATHING SPACE right now).
Been creative and playing original tunes with a band in its early stages is done out of the sheer love of doing it and the feeling of getting your tunes (and yourselves) 'out there'. If you join an original band so you can 'make money' you're in the entirely wrong business. You have to find other ways (ie; day jobs and/or playing 'cover' gigs) to keep the 'wolf from the door'.
That's just the reality of the situation.
Ive really cheered myself up now
Peace
marc
I play in an all cover versions band, but believe me, it's PURELY for the love & enjoyment of playing live, not money, but I see what you mean. We get approx £150 per gig between 5 of us - take away fuel, strings etc...doesn't leave us much, but like I say, we do it as a hobby.....I would much rather play a 'packed-to-the-rafters' place that people love us than get money. Mindyou, I have to say that we do have careers/day jobs which means we don't have time to write etc, hence covers!
---
Weety
--------
The swear filter again; how come I can't get 'D i c kensian' through, but Weety can get away with 'wanksock'? -
Paul Q
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20/Mar/07, 4:09 pm
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