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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
Something that I think may have been overlooked, is that this problem is very rare in Australia. There's only about a handful or so we know of, but I guess I may be overlooking the fact that there are many many more X-Trails out there that aren't members of this forum.
But with the X-Trail usually the highest-selling compact 4WD for several years now, and realising how many there are on Australian roads, the handful we've heard about (or maybe possibly as much as a few dozen Australia-wide) with this problem would probably not be enough for Nissan Australia to warrant announcing a national recall.
I thought recalls were for "major" problems - ie: something that could cause an accident or injury/death to people, but then there's the fuel-filler-tube recall, and the outcome of not doing that is a possible leaking pipe after it rusts through - hardly a dangerous situation (unless it drips onto the hot brakes?).
I'm waffling-on... Perhaps I'm wrong. I reckon Nissan would most likely be looking at the cost issue - ie: mostly the labour component... How many tens of thousands of X-Trails are on Australian roads? 
--- Rich. X-013(c)
'04 S2 ST Auto. Nudge_roofracks_tow_tints_Lightforce_GME_BFG_TBS_home-made-bashplate_50mm-spacer-lift
Click here to see >300MB of photos and videos All For His Glory. |
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14/Apr/2007, 7:23 pm
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
The problem is, that any issues which effects the vehicle in ANY way, not attributed to general wear and tear, SHOULD be a concern of the manufacturer. Especially considering how Nissan sell this vehicle as an escape off-road SUV, capable of taking you almost anyway. Imagine finding this problem mid-way across The Simpson, or on a track in the High Country. Hate to think what the tow would cost.
I agree that there have not been that many reports that we know of, but like most early medical diagnosis', how many have been given a 'band-aid' fix and sent back on the road, with a prayer to make it past the warranty stage.
Considering my reason for buying this car, to get away with the family, this has left a bad impression and could result in the beloved exy leaving the household for good. Just like the family dog, if it bites you, you send it 'to a mates farm'.
--- BRETT72 - X235
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14/Apr/2007, 9:22 pm
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
OK Guys,
I am here to tell you more alarming news which may prove that we have inherited a long existent Nissan design flaw when Nissan designed the beloved QR25DE engine as further refinement to other Nissan engines.
My search for answers revealed that this EXACT issue with the Power Valve Screws in the intake manifold coming loose has been experienced since 1998 (or earlier) with the V6 Nissan Maxima engine.
Below is a series of photos taken of a 1999 V6 engine showing the extent of the damage and how far these butterflies can get into the engine and how tiny these screws are to find their way inside the chamber and cause the damage.
  
  
There have been miracle reports from both Sentra and Maxima owners stating they managed to catch the loose screws in time before they got sucked inside the engine, some of them used magnetic tools to retrieve them while others couldn't find them, so they continued hearing the tapping noise with a running engine and consequently suffered the dreaded power loss.
In ALL cases where this problem has happened, it has resulted in a damaged engine or an engine that managed to run for a VERY short period of time before finally giving-up and needed to be replaced!
I am amazed by the fact that Nissan continued manufacturing engines with such a HUGE and enormous design flaw that would leave any Nissan enthusiast out of pocket in the long run when faced with such a problem.
Apart from the already announced recall in the U.S. Nissan continued to deny this problem with all other models, yet photos and reports on the net prove otherwise and clearly confirm that it is a problem that was evident for almost TEN YEARS!
Given the new and so called "improved" design of the butterfly screws which Nissan implemented in 2006, I can no longer be confident that even the newly designed screws won't face the same fate, as they're still screws that can get loose with time.
Further reports do confirm what the salesman told Brett about having a screen in the lower part of the intake manifold as another security measure to stop the screws from going inside the engine, but does that help?? I don't think so, as you could be driving around with 4 completely fallen-off butterflies and 8 completely fallen off screws that are trapped by this security screen and the performance of your car will be greatly affected, yet pin-pointing this problem may prove impossible if you don't know what to look for or if you're un-aware of the loose screws dilemma.
Where to from here??
Here are the solutions as we have discussed them previously and a new permanent solution as well:
1. Use Loctite Red Hi-Temp #272 (temporary solution)
2. Weld all 8 screws in place. Yes, this is the permanent solution that has been done. It is a very drastic measure to eliminate the cause of a problem, but it is the ONLY way you can drive safely without worrying about any of these damn screws coming off again. The trade of is that you will NEVER be able to remove the butterflies again, but personally I can't think of any reason why I would need to do that.
IMPORTANT:
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In all cases where loose power valve screws are detected and to determine the extent of the damage caused to the engine, a COMPRESSION TEST must be carried-out.
Below is the data for our engine compression ratios and tests which must be used when the compression test is carried-out.
The QR25DE is a 2.5 L The engine bore is 89 mm with a stroke of 100 mm and a compression ratio of 9.5:1
Stock engine is 182psi low is 154psi with no more than 14psi variance between cylinders.
As much as I love my xtrail, I can't stop thinking that one day somewhere, my exy will suffer a similar fate and die on me because of a design stupidity like the one we're witnessing. How hard was it for Nissan Japan engineers to sit down and think really carefully about possible ways to solve this problem once and for all, unless the intention was "let's just get the car ticking for the duration of the warranty period and this where we can wash our hands of it and not worry about what can happen later!!"
With such a POOR design and with the simplest of things going wrong and causing such a degree of damage, I often wonder how long Nissan can stay and be considered a competitor in the market and still believe that people will have the confidence buying the newly released models without any sort of re-assurance from Nissan that their previous problems and design flaws have been adequately addressed.
I am not going to wait for Nissan to finally decide to wake-up for themselves and just because I want to enjoy driving my exy for many years to come. I am going to permanently weld these screws by an independent and professional service shop and this will be the end of this dilemma for me I hope.
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14/Apr/2007, 11:16 pm
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
Great background info Jalal.
I'm going to take this to my lease company to get their view on this problem and see what they want to do about it as it could possibly mean a costly hit to their budget if anything was to happen to my Xtrail engine in the next 2yrs before the lease runs out and I purchase the Xtrail.
--- 
Kev X450(c)
2003 Titanium Ti Luxury Series 1 |
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14/Apr/2007, 11:50 pm
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
Brand loyalty is the cornerstone of any business and working in a business that's main focus is people buying things from us, our main focus is customer service and this is what Nissan should be looking at. Good news travels fast but bad news faster and people will tell 1 person of good service but 6 people of bad service.
I has never been a fan of Nissan until I saw the Xtrail and there are quite a few of the same opinion as myself that I know of that are considering buying the Xtrail. It would be a shame if one bad report like this puts people off buying what we all feel is a pretty damn good vehicle.
When are Nissan Head Office going to realise that a recall, although not good publicity initially, is the best way of assuring owners that they are proactive in caring for their customers and not just the bottom line on the balance sheet. Surely they can see that a recall will cost them a lot less than the replacement of motor after motor on top of the bad 'word of mouth' publicity.
I feel sorry for those Xtrail drivers that are not part of this forum and may be out of warranty who may get stung with a hefty replacement bill simply because the dealer either does not want to admit the problem is a design or manufacture fault or deliberately hides the fact to avoid hassles. Or the owner is not the type of person to question a warranty status or just does not even think of it a warranty issue and takes it to a non Nissan mechanic.
I hope Nissan read this - it's a damn shame!
--- Jamie - X112(c)
Black 2005, Auto ST-X, (Series 2)
Black Thunda is the name, splashin' around is the game!
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14/Apr/2007, 11:50 pm
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
Well it seems it's still cheaper for Nissan to replace engines at this stage than conduct a full scale recall.
I'm with Jalal, I want mine permanently welded in and Nissan should be covering all expense, my exy is out of warranty also.
My exy is the exact same age and model as Brett's (just different colour) and with an extra 7000kms on the clock, so mine could go at any moment also.
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15/Apr/2007, 2:44 am
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
Roger,
I think you have missed the official recall link which I mentioned in the first post of this thread HERE
The U.S. Recall was for the Nissan Sentra Spec-V and Nissan Altima, both of which have exactly the same engine as ours (QR25DE) and obviously the same intake manifold (with these screws).
The xtrail is not available in the U.S. but in this particular instance, we do share the same problem with the Sentra Spec-V and Altima.
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15/Apr/2007, 12:26 pm
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Re: **Loose intake butterfly screws**
It seems to me that Nissan already has a public relations disaster on its hands. Most, if not all members of this forum would be having grave fears and doubts about the integrity of their vehicle and the sincerity of Nissan Australia. Unhappy & disappointed people all talk to others, even to non-member owners. This event has the potential to destroy Nissan's market for future X-trail sales, and possibly other of their models.
In about two months I plan to replace my second vehicle with a new medium size European diesel sedan and make the X-trail my second vehicle, mainly driven by my wife.
However, I now have second thoughts and tending to think I should "ditch" the X-trail. With my present mind-set, I would not be getting another Nissan.
So - does Nissan want happy customers, or are they willing to let their market dwindle?
Last edited by Dunoon, 15/Apr/2007, 12:37 pm
---
John,
From Orange NSW.
My rides are:
2002 TI Auto (Series 1) in Twilight, and
2007 Maxima in Bright Silver
Member number: X165
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15/Apr/2007, 12:35 pm
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